[Mayan EDMS: 268] Beginner's questions

[Stefan Lodders]

Hi Roberto,

as you know via Nate from appsembler.net I would really like to see Mayan
chosen from my hospital.
We don't have any IT gurus at hand, so I as an experienced user, have to
handle it. And if I as the most experienced user in IT become desperate, my
collegues will become desperate even more and earlier.

From the admin's point of view I did not even manage to upload a newer

version of a document. Although I RTFM I could not find that out so far.
I guess all the functions I need for almost everything are "in there"
somewhere, but they don't seem to be connected to each in a way easy to use.

E.g. a workflow for a new document and an new version should be like that:
1. Upload the document (give Metadatas etc.) in an editable version (e.g.
.docx). Mayan should create a pdf version of it and present it to anyone
who does not check it out for editing. Alternatively present an option to
upload the pdf version manually.
2. You should be able to specify who may edit the document except from you.
3. A "new" tag should be "rewarded" for some time automatically so other
users can find it easily.
4. If you set a "for review" tag, the document is hidden to all users but
to those users or role members you specify for the review. If a reviewer
removes the review tag it will become visible.
5. If you check out a document you become able to download the editable
version of the document.
6. After editing the document you can check it in again and may specify the
version jump. Micro steps don't get a "new" tag, all other's do. If the
uploader is not a reviewer for the document (see above) the document gets a
"for review" tag, too, for all but micro steps.
7. When locked in a user gets under "home" an overview over new comments on
documents he may edit or he commented on, documents with a "new" tag etc.

Additional features like reading confirmation for new documents are
absolutely necessary in an institution with 200+ members.

I have no idea how to explain a somehow smilar workflow to my bosses with
the current Mayan version...

As you know for sure several norms exist
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_management_system). You'll have to
match most of these norms to get a chance to earn a relevant amount of
money with your great project because most company are working on becoming
certified (e.g. with EN ISO 9001) and there a norm compliant dms is a
conditio sine quo non.

Stefan

--

[Roberto Rosario]

Post by Stefan Lodders
Hi Roberto,
as you know via Nate from appsembler.net I would really like to see Mayan
chosen from my hospital.
We don't have any IT gurus at hand, so I as an experienced user, have to
handle it. And if I as the most experienced user in IT become desperate, my
collegues will become desperate even more and earlier.
From the admin's point of view I did not even manage to upload a newer
version of a document. Although I RTFM I could not find that out so far.
I guess all the functions I need for almost everything are "in there"
somewhere, but they don't seem to be connected to each in a way easy to use.

The main layout for every view is: main menu on top, secondary toolbar and
actions for the currently selected object in the top of the sidebar at the
right side and alternative actions at the bottom of the sidebar. To upload
a new version of a document, select a previously uploaded document, go to
the versions tab and on the bottom of the right sidebar there should be an
"upload new document version" menu entry. Yes the documentation on that
feature is a little vague. Since it takes time away from doing support and
writing code, what I usually do is take a few days prior to the release of
a new version to work on the documentation, if something didn't make the
cut it is usually added in the next release.

Post by Stefan Lodders
1. Upload the document (give Metadatas etc.) in an editable version (e.g.
.docx). Mayan should create a pdf version of it and present it to anyone
who does not check it out for editing. Alternatively present an option to
upload the pdf version manually.

To see if I understood correctly: Provide a PDF version of the uploaded
.docx document if the user doesn't has editing permissions?

2. You should be able to specify who may edit the document except from you.
This can be done using the ACL (access control list) feature, where you can
restrict what actions any user can do to any specific document. You can
even set the default ACL to assign upon document creation (which
permissions to assign to the creator of the document, or any other specific
user, group of users, or role)

Post by Stefan Lodders
3. A "new" tag should be "rewarded" for some time automatically so other
users can find it easily.

This would require a rule base system that automatically assigns tags to
document based on programmatic criteria set by de admin (kind of like the
smart link or the indexes). Something similar to this is in the TO DO list
for the next mayor version, but is not even designed yet.

Post by Stefan Lodders
4. If you set a "for review" tag, the document is hidden to all users but
to those users or role members you specify for the review. If a reviewer
removes the review tag it will become visible.

This sort of functionality is better handled by a workflow engine like the
one being developed for Mayan, that changes the document properties and
access control list based on the used defined states of a document
(uploaded, approved, rejected). This functionality passed the design phase and
there is some model code but it is slated for the next mayor release.

Post by Stefan Lodders
5. If you check out a document you become able to download the editable
version of the document.

This is already implemented using the checkout system where a user can
checkout a document for editing and lock it so that no one else can
uploading a new version.

Post by Stefan Lodders
6. After editing the document you can check it in again and may specify
the version jump. Micro steps don't get a "new" tag, all other's do. If the
uploader is not a reviewer for the document (see above) the document gets a
"for review" tag, too, for all but micro steps.

There is support for specifying the mayor, minor and micro version of the
new version of a document along with a comment of the changes. No support
for setting the tags on the event of uploading a new version.

Post by Stefan Lodders
7. When locked in a user gets under "home" an overview over new comments
on documents he may edit or he commented on, documents with a "new" tag etc.

This sounds like a dashboard. Removal of the current static home page
showing the pyramid logo to replace it with a dashboard is already under
way (
https://github.com/rosarior/mayan/blob/development/docs/releases/0.13.rst),
but for inclusion on the next mayor version.

Post by Stefan Lodders
Additional features like reading confirmation for new documents are
absolutely necessary in an institution with 200+ members.

Reading confirmations like email reading confirmations?

Post by Stefan Lodders
I have no idea how to explain a somehow smilar workflow to my bosses with
the current Mayan version...
As you know for sure several norms exist (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_management_system). You'll have to
match most of these norms to get a chance to earn a relevant amount of
money with your great project because most company are working on becoming
certified (e.g. with EN ISO 9001) and there a norm compliant dms is a
conditio sine quo non.
Stefan

Getting certified is not a big priority for the project at this time (at
least for me personally) because of well, personal reasons. Having tried
to get previous software certified taught me that some (if not all)
certification processes are either scams to get money and provide a false
sense of elitism for the company whose software get certified selectively
or are poorly defined that the required implementation for compliance are
very open to individual interpretation (for example check HIPAA in regards
to record privacy) or cannot be effectively implemented. Either way they
all lead down the same path: a disproportional amount of money and time
spent trying to get certified and an a selective situation where only a
specific group of software gets certified and allowed in certain
industries, even if these lack in terms of technical quality.

As far as I can tell Mayan can do a few of the things you require, and I
can add some of the ones it lacks but there are others which may not
be implemented at all. This is because Mayan is meant to as a general
document management platform with customization capabilities for several
sectors, but there is a limit to how much a software can be customized
before a specialized solution is needed. It seems to me that you would
best benefit from a dedicated solution meant for your work environment,
like an EHR with basic document management features. Thanks a lot for
giving Mayan EDMS a serious look though, and for your input, very much
appreciated,

--Roberto


--

[Stefan Lodders]

Hi Roberto,

Google Groups sent my first attempt to reply to Nirvana. :(

Thank you for your detailed answers.

I apologize for my English. It is not enough to be diplomatic. No insult
intended at anytime.

Post by Roberto Rosario
The main layout for every view is: main menu on top, secondary toolbar and
actions for the currently selected object in the top of the sidebar at the
right side and alternative actions at the bottom of the sidebar. To upload
a new version of a document, select a previously uploaded document, go to
the versions tab and on the bottom of the right sidebar there should be an
"upload new document version" menu entry. Yes the documentation on that
feature is a little vague. Since it takes time away from doing support
and writing code, what I usually do is take a few days prior to the
release of a new version to work on the documentation, if something didn't
make the cut it is usually added in the next release.

I found the option just minutes before my presentation about Mayan, on my
1900x1200px monitor at home the link had always been below the right bottom
of the screen.

Post by Roberto Rosario
To see if I understood correctly: Provide a PDF version of the uploaded
.docx document if the user doesn't has editing permissions?

Correct. As a comfortable alternative to do this manually.

Post by Roberto Rosario
This can be done using the ACL (access control list) feature, where you
can restrict what actions any user can do to any specific document. You
can even set the default ACL to assign upon document creation (which
permissions to assign to the creator of the document, or any other specific
user, group of users, or role)

The Mayan's rights management is as powerful as complex. For managing it
"en passant" it seems a litle too complex, e.g. providing 5 or more sites
of acl, roles and group options.

Post by Roberto Rosario
This would require a rule base system that automatically assigns tags to
document based on programmatic criteria set by de admin (kind of like the
smart link or the indexes). Something similar to this is in the TO DO list
for the next mayor version, but is not even designed yet.

To me it looks like a very important feature to give the tags not just a
.png, but a meaning so you can search for all new documents, for all
awaiting review and so on...

Post by Roberto Rosario
This sort of functionality is better handled by a workflow engine like the
one being developed for Mayan, that changes the document properties and
access control list based on the used defined states of a document
(uploaded, approved, rejected). This functionality passed the design
phase and there is some model code but it is slated for the next mayor
release.

A dms always has a context in which the documents are embedded, so some
rudimentary workflow managment (and "check out" certainly is a beginning)
is necessary.

Post by Roberto Rosario
This sounds like a dashboard. Removal of the current static home page
showing the pyramid logo to replace it with a dashboard is already under
way (
https://github.com/rosarior/mayan/blob/development/docs/releases/0.13.rst),
but for inclusion on the next mayor version.

Exactly. Without one you will be lost in a jungle of documents with no clue
about there status, importance etc.

Post by Roberto Rosario
Reading confirmations like email reading confirmations?

Yes. So you can monitor if a new employee has read (not understood) the
essential documents e.g. to start working in an ambulance. Or who has not
read an important note about misproduced drugs.

Post by Roberto Rosario
Getting certified is not a big priority for the project at this time (at
least for me personally) because of well, personal reasons. Having tried
to get previous software certified taught me that some (if not all)
certification processes are either scams to get money and provide a false
sense of elitism for the company whose software get certified selectively
or are poorly defined that the required implementation for compliance are
very open to individual interpretation (for example check HIPAA in
regards to record privacy) or cannot be effectively implemented. Either
way they all lead down the same path: a disproportional amount of money and
time spent trying to get certified and an a selective situation where
only a specific group of software gets certified and allowed in certain
industries, even if these lack in terms of technical quality.

I would NEVER recommend anyone to certify. But in many branches you are
forced more or less to certify your unit to stay in the market. So a DMS
should support such needs, e.g. demanded in EN ISO 9oo1.


Stefan

--

[Roberto Rosario]

Post by Stefan Lodders
Hi Roberto,
Google Groups sent my first attempt to reply to Nirvana. :(

The message made it in my mailbox but not to the Group, strange :/

Post by Stefan Lodders
Thank you for your detailed answers.
I apologize for my English. It is not enough to be diplomatic. No insult
intended at anytime.

No worries I understood your context, no insult taken :) English is not my
first language either so I worry sometimes about how I'm saying what I mean
too :)

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
The main layout for every view is: main menu on top, secondary toolbar
and actions for the currently selected object in the top of the sidebar at
the right side and alternative actions at the bottom of the sidebar. To
upload a new version of a document, select a previously uploaded document,
go to the versions tab and on the bottom of the right sidebar there should
be an "upload new document version" menu entry. Yes the documentation on
that feature is a little vague. Since it takes time away from doing
support and writing code, what I usually do is take a few days prior to
the release of a new version to work on the documentation, if something
didn't make the cut it is usually added in the next release.

I found the option just minutes before my presentation about Mayan, on my
1900x1200px monitor at home the link had always been below the right bottom
of the screen.

The current HTML framework being used is elastic but not responsive so some
items get hidden on some monitor aspect ratios. A move to HTML5 and
Twitter's bootstrap is being considered.

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
To see if I understood correctly: Provide a PDF version of the uploaded
.docx document if the user doesn't has editing permissions?

Correct. As a comfortable alternative to do this manually.
This can be done using the ACL (access control list) feature, where you

Post by Roberto Rosario
can restrict what actions any user can do to any specific document. You
can even set the default ACL to assign upon document creation (which
permissions to assign to the creator of the document, or any other specific
user, group of users, or role)

The Mayan's rights management is as powerful as complex. For managing it
"en passant" it seems a litle too complex, e.g. providing 5 or more sites
of acl, roles and group options.

I'll see what can be done about adding some predefined common use roles
with certain ACLs by default: Supervisor, Reviewer, etc that loosely fit as
many use cases as possible.

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
This would require a rule base system that automatically assigns tags to
document based on programmatic criteria set by de admin (kind of like the
smart link or the indexes). Something similar to this is in the TO DO list
for the next mayor version, but is not even designed yet.

To me it looks like a very important feature to give the tags not just a
.png, but a meaning so you can search for all new documents, for all
awaiting review and so on...

You can already search document by tags only, but this feature would be
about giving tags intelligence so they can attach themselves automatically
to documents based on the document's state, correct?

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
This sort of functionality is better handled by a workflow engine like
the one being developed for Mayan, that changes the document properties and
access control list based on the used defined states of a document
(uploaded, approved, rejected). This functionality passed the design
phase and there is some model code but it is slated for the next mayor
release.

A dms always has a context in which the documents are embedded, so some
rudimentary workflow managment (and "check out" certainly is a beginning)
is necessary.

A workflow engine is one of the most requested features. Most of all the
internal updates being made are to accommodate the steep requirements of
the workflow engine (document states, dynamic ACL based on state, dynamic
icons, scheduling for expired workflow tasks, multi-tenant support, trash
bin support, among many others)

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
This sounds like a dashboard. Removal of the current static home page
showing the pyramid logo to replace it with a dashboard is already under
way (
https://github.com/rosarior/mayan/blob/development/docs/releases/0.13.rst),
but for inclusion on the next mayor version.

Exactly. Without one you will be lost in a jungle of documents with no
clue about there status, importance etc.

Post by Roberto Rosario
Reading confirmations like email reading confirmations?

Yes. So you can monitor if a new employee has read (not understood) the
essential documents e.g. to start working in an ambulance. Or who has not
read an important note about misproduced drugs.

This is something not usually associated with DMS software but sounds very
interesting and very useful. The main issue is getting 'feedback' about a
document from users, so I would do it a bit more generic and allow the
creation of simple forms for input about a specific type of document. The
form could be then crafted by supervisor to be as simple as a checkbox with
"I have read the document" to also contain several checkboxes and
textfields: [] I have read the document, [] I agree, [] I do not agree,
explaing why: _________. With a result page detailing each user response
for any given document type. The main difficulty is rendering the dynamic
form, aside from that all other things to support this don't appear to be
too difficult.

Post by Stefan Lodders

Post by Roberto Rosario
Getting certified is not a big priority for the project at this time (at
least for me personally) because of well, personal reasons. Having tried
to get previous software certified taught me that some (if not all)
certification processes are either scams to get money and provide a false
sense of elitism for the company whose software get certified selectively
or are poorly defined that the required implementation for compliance are
very open to individual interpretation (for example check HIPAA in
regards to record privacy) or cannot be effectively implemented. Either
way they all lead down the same path: a disproportional amount of money and
time spent trying to get certified and an a selective situation where
only a specific group of software gets certified and allowed in certain
industries, even if these lack in terms of technical quality.

I would NEVER recommend anyone to certify. But in many branches you are
forced more or less to certify your unit to stay in the market. So a DMS
should support such needs, e.g. demanded in EN ISO 9oo1.

Certification is not a top priority, but moving the project to have a
feature set like those required by the different certifications is a
priority. The idea is to lower the barrier when and if a certification
effort is made. Document versioning is one example of this.

Post by Stefan Lodders
Stefan

Thanks a lot for all your input!

--Robert

--